Red Line 5w50 VOA

I intend to run it year round. I ran the M1 5w50 all winter last year. Been dropping into the 30s here at night already. Not super cold, but even after sitting two days it fired up this morning and was as quiet as a church mouse, not one bit of ticking or rattling.


Anyone who has run the Pennzoil or other shelf products knows these Hemis typically sound like shit for at least a few seconds under these conditions. Which is interesting, isn’t it? Oils that flow better (on paper) wind up sounding much worse. There’s more to cold start protection than flow.

I do get it, 5w50 sounds like A LOT. But it’s still a “5w” and actually beats the -30* CCS standard for that grade by a decent margin (6000 cP, upper limit is 6600). For more context, Valvoline makes a conventional 5w20 that’s 6100 cP @ -30! In other words, worse and only an SAE 20.

Now I grant you a good synthetic 5w20 will be in the 4000s, but the accepted SAE J300 limit for a 5w anything is what it is. If your oil falls under that, you’re sensible during warmup and not in the arctic circle it’ll be just fine.

I've run nothing but PUP 0w-40 since new and my engine starts up nice and quiet. I've never had any lifter noise warm or cold and I routinely start up in the garage with the window(s) down, so I would hear it with all of the sound reflection in that environment. I do hear the exhaust crickets after a cold start, but that's pretty easy to distinguish from lifters rattling.
 
Okay, but is that after just pushing the button, or doing the "flooded routine" first?
I don’t do the clear flood thing. It probably has merit because your analysis always looks much better than average with that oil. But it’s just not my habit.
I've run nothing but PUP 0w-40 since new and my engine starts up nice and quiet. I've never had any lifter noise warm or cold and I routinely start up in the garage with the window(s) down, so I would hear it with all of the sound reflection in that environment. I do hear the exhaust crickets after a cold start, but that's pretty easy to distinguish from lifters rattling.
Cold starts sounded awful on the PUP with mine. I mean they did put a blurb in the manual saying it’s “normal” for your engine to sound awful, so I guess I could have just accepted it. But I think we know that’s not really me.
 
I don’t do the clear flood thing. It probably has merit because your analysis always looks much better than average with that oil. But it’s just not my habit.

Cold starts sounded awful on the PUP with mine. I mean they did put a blurb in the manual saying it’s “normal” for your engine to sound awful, so I guess I could have just accepted it. But I think we know that’s not really me.

I do see a lot of comments, mostly on the 5th Gen forum about noisey Hemi's. I guess I got lucky, both of my Hemi's were/are as quiet as a sewing machine. The 5.7 in my Tundra had a lot of mechanical noise, but apparently was normal according to the Toyota forums. I didn't run anything but the recommended 0w-20. It didn't occur to me to try a thicker oil to see if that would quiet it down a bit.
 
I do see a lot of comments, mostly on the 5th Gen forum about noisey Hemi's. I guess I got lucky, both of my Hemi's were/are as quiet as a sewing machine. The 5.7 in my Tundra had a lot of mechanical noise, but apparently was normal according to the Toyota forums. I didn't run anything but the recommended 0w-20. It didn't occur to me to try a thicker oil to see if that would quiet it down a bit.
Yeah, viscosity is at least a minor factor. But when we talk about a truck sitting for days between starts, the lifters are going to bleed down no matter what. One reason I preach Red Line is for its polarity. It can keep surfaces wetter longer and reduce that cold start wear and noise regardless.

My point was if we take the main argument for 0w at face value (cold flow), why isn’t that benefit ever observable in real life? Not via testing or analysis and not when simply using our ears. 5wXX should be louder and for longer if flow was slow or inadequate. And my winter run samples of 5w40 and 5w50 should have been terrible.

Unfortunately the truth is the worst samples I did were short winter runs of PUP 0w40 (test #2 & 3). Test #1 is RL 0w40 so you can see how jarring the spike in iron was when I moved back to PUP. Chart is standardized for mileage and we are at the back end now with a few increases of viscosity and brand changes along the way.
IMG_1122.webp
 
I've read through this thread and I really like the idea of getting away from the 0w-40 to 5w-40 or 5w-50 but one thing I'm worried about is Redline only shows the 0w-40 as compatible with MS-12633. It doesn't seem to be just the viscosity but formula??? Can you help me understand formula differences?

I'll add that I see the same from Amsoil. The MS-12633 compatibility is only on the 0W40 oil so maybe it's just viscosity but I know oils have different formulas for specific applications.
 
I've read through this thread and I really like the idea of getting away from the 0w-40 to 5w-40 or 5w-50 but one thing I'm worried about is Redline only shows the 0w-40 as compatible with MS-12633. It doesn't seem to be just the viscosity but formula??? Can you help me understand formula differences?

I'll add that I see the same from Amsoil. The MS-12633 compatibility is only on the 0W40 oil so maybe it's just viscosity but I know oils have different formulas for specific applications.
The Mopar “material standard” is not required by the manual, just recommended. They don’t make their standards public but when ILSAC GF-5 became GF-6, MS-12633 suddenly became MS-A0921. So I assume these specs are just mirroring each other.

Ironically, I’ve not seen many oils perform worse in this platform than the one that actually bought the Mopar license (Pennzoil).

Others like Red Line and Amsoil don’t actually have a license agreement with Mopar, even in the 0w40 grades. They don’t even have API certification. Not worth it for boutique brands to pay a fortune for it and have to neuter their top shelf oil along the way.
 
Shell beat Exxon for the right to supply the OEM oils to Stellantis vehicles soon after they bought CDJR. Exxon was not willing to to go to that level. The other factor was Shell and Stellantis are both Dutch companies and have had a long relationship in Europe.
 
Anyone here have any experience with Liqui Moly 20310 Molygen New Generation SAE 5W-50 Oil?
 
Anyone here have any experience with Liqui Moly 20310 Molygen New Generation SAE 5W-50 Oil?
Personally don’t see a point in moving to a 5w50 with an HTHS of only 3.7 like that product. That’s REALLY low for the grade. Lower than 0w40 options from Red Line and even Amsoil.
 
Long time coming but finally got everything together.

Sample #1 M1 5w50 (I posted earlier on the forum)
Sample #2 RL 5w50
View attachment 152166
Let’s get right to the numbers. M1 performed well, but iron wear rate with the Red Line was much lower yet. This is the big one on this platform. They tend to shed a lot of it so getting the rate this low is virtually unheard of. Especially on an engine pushing 15 PSI boost in a 6500lb brick. Subtracting the background 2 PPM iron found in the virgin sample left the rate at 2.89 PPM/ per 1000 miles. 62% lower than the universal average for all oils in the platform! Talk about having your cake and eating it. Adding more power and still seeing less wear!

Copper. This is one that can be sticky with these trucks. Absent any spikes in aluminum or tin we can assume leeching from the oil cooler, which is all it is here. Completely harmless. Typically, doing what I have done (changing oil chemistries back and forth) can make it worse. The copper passivates and then a different chemistry like the esters in Red Line will effectively strip that copper oxide layer and restart the process. I spoke to Lake Speed Jr. about this a little while back and he is working on some testing which hopefully will give us more information on the science behind the leeching. It’s not something that has been studied enough.

Viscosity. As expected, Red Line simply doesn’t shear and held up great. Which in big part contributed to the low wear rate. Think I’ve been pounding the table on viscosity enough now!

Finally, I didn’t want to make it all about E85 because this oil would work equally well with gasoline. But it’s impossible to ignore the impact of this fuel on the oil. Or more accurately, the lack of impact. It’s common to for people to say that if you run E85 you should change oil twice as often. The thinking would be that since you burn a lot more fuel than with straight gasoline, the opportunity for dilution is higher. This is flawed thinking because alcohol is so light, it’s gone before it ever really takes hold in the oil. Left behind is just water which is also quickly evaporated. Thus as expected, and as I’ve seen in the past on other vehicles, dilution was below detection limits. So basically nothing. Oil was clean in color, free of any smell and my catch can has been staying pretty much empty. I don’t have to baby sit it like I used to.

Thanks in big part to the clean fuel, TBN retention was also stellar, this oil has a LOT of life left! Good thing I didn’t change it! 4k would likely be no problem.

Some final thoughts/ operational notes:

I have a ton of fun with this truck and do WOT on-ramp pulls once or twice every time I take it out. That said, I’m sensible. I don’t run it hard until up to temp. I minimize idling, and don’t short trip it. My average speed for this interval was 43 MPH. Probably double what a city slicker would see. Anyway, my point is that these are easy things anyone can do to get better results with any product.

The worst test results I’ve seen with these Hemis are always short tripped, idled, or run hard with high oil temps. All scenarios which are made much worse when you use these sub-par factory spec oils that simply don’t have the MOFT and polarity to protect in anything less than ideal conditions.

Very pleased to say I have found my oil. I will probably turn the truck loose for awhile and NOT sample every change as I have done basically since I bought it. I had a lot of fun watching the progress but I sort of knew this would be where I would end up!
I'm guessing you're using Blackstone Labs? What test(s) are you requesting? Is it the "standard oil testing" or are you requesting more?

Thanks
 
I'm guessing you're using Blackstone Labs? What test(s) are you requesting? Is it the "standard oil testing" or are you requesting more?

Thanks
Oil Analyzers Inc, can order kit from the Amsoil site.
 

@OnTheReel Not a really positive view of Redline oil. I know it's not a Hellcat engine, but was hoping to see RL do well regardless. Your thoughts?
Lots to consider.

First, the TEOST test is imperfect, with oils highest in MoDTC finishing at the bottom. Both in this test and in general. Doesn’t necessarily reflect level of deposit formation we’d see in the real world after longer use. For what it’s worth, you’d certainly see the RL Euro do better in TEOST if it was chosen instead (as I do for my wife’s turbocharged car). Either way, for this platform it’s not really relevant.

Next. Total wear metals makes for nice graphs but it is a stat I don’t like for a number of reasons I’ve talked about before. So when you look at iron alone (as the best proxy for wear), the difference between best to worst is 3PPM. With the RDE method SPEEDIAGNOSTIX uses, you are really splitting hairs.

This next point is not to defend Red Line but I think it’s a valid observation. In order of testing…Red Line was run first and then Pennzoil second.

Red Line was worst in iron, Pennzoil second worst.

Red Line was worst in temperature, Pennzoil second worst.

Red Line finished last in torque, Pennzoil second to last.

These two products have absolutely nothing in common. Different base oils, additive composition. Viscosity and HTHS about as far apart as the test could get too. So many of the other explanations we could use, like high viscosity elevating temperature, or low viscosity elevating wear just don’t fit.

They did put a special “soft” cam in the motor for testing. It’s possible we are viewing the residual break in of this cam that elevated both wear and heat in the earlier tests. If the two oils tested first were tested last instead? Who knows.

I just think that generally speaking these tests never reflect real life in spite of his best efforts. Over the years I’ve seen Red Line and a few other products perform poorly in “bench tests”. Both the Project Farm variety and more scientific like this. While actually performing very well in real life. On the flip side, the YouTube sweethearts are sometimes overrated and underperform.

Every car and person is different, and we need to test in our own vehicles to make the best decisions. I can only ever share what works for me and the science behind it.
 
wow so much info
looks promising 5 -40

love nulon oil only found in Australia for the gtr which make stupid power 20w50 oil but private label under
Fuchs oil the titan series I. believe

trying to buy and test virgin samples
 

@OnTheReel Not a really positive view of Redline oil. I know it's not a Hellcat engine, but was hoping to see RL do well regardless. Your thoughts?
Some more to consider after having this rattling around in my brain a few days….

Before Red Line he indicates he used a break-in oil. What’s in break-in oil? A LOAD of ZDDP, delivered in a less polar mineral base oil that doesn’t compete with it for surfaces. Allows for an increased film thickness to “smooth over” asperities during break in.

In order for ZDDP to be effective in limiting wear, it also has to STICK! In other words, these tribofilms aren’t so readily flushed out in an oil change. The excess still in solution will get rinsed out, but the established films need to wear away.

What else does ZDDP do? It causes friction that greatly increases with film thickness. Friction = heat. Loss of power. Add to that the newly rebuilt motor? More friction, more heat, more wear.

The first oil tested winds up taking that bullet…

Some dull but educational reading on the subject if anyone is so inclined:

 

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