Red Line 5w50 VOA

[OnTheReel]

Sent a virgin sample of the Red Line 5w50 I started using last week. This is fresh stuff from the new plant.

This oil is STRONG. Shitload of moly and zinc. What I like to see.

It’s good to know not only the TBN, but the background levels of FE, AL, tin and nitration in the virgin sample. So I can factor that in when looking at my future used samples. Also was good to still see the high oxidation value, likely puts it around the same 30-40% POE it’s been for a long time. In other words, the reports of Red Line’s death were greatly exaggerated.

As far as how it performs in my truck, time will tell. So far so good. Engine is quiet as a church mouse. You can tell she’s thick for sure. 50 PSI hot idle and 85 at WOT.

Still, oil temp never goes above 200 even in this wretched heat and stop and go driving. 180 thermostat helps, but if I went too far in viscosity there would be no hiding that. Really excited to put a few thousand on this run and see how it stacks up against the M1 5w50 (which really impressed me).

 

[FULLTHROTTLERICK]

Sent a virgin sample of the Red Line 5w50 I started using last week. This is fresh stuff from the new plant.
View attachment 147784
This oil is STRONG. Shitload of moly and zinc. What I like to see.

It’s good to know not only the TBN, but the background levels of FE, AL, tin and nitration in the virgin sample. So I can factor that in when looking at my future used samples. Also was good to still see the high oxidation value, likely puts it around the same 30-40% POE it’s been for a long time. In other words, the reports of Red Line’s death were greatly exaggerated.

As far as how it performs in my truck, time will tell. So far so good. Engine is quiet as a church mouse. You can tell she’s thick for sure. 50 PSI hot idle and 85 at WOT. View attachment 147786
Still, oil temp never goes above 200 even in this wretched heat and stop and go driving. 180 thermostat helps, but if I went too far in viscosity there would be no hiding that. Really excited to put a few thousand on this run and see how it stacks up against the M1 5w50 (which really impressed me).View attachment 147787

You thinking of running this all the time instead of 0w40 redline?

 

[OnTheReel]

You thinking of running this all the time instead of 0w40 redline?

Yeah, slowly working my way up the ladder and finding what performs the best. 0w40 turned to 5w40 turned to 5w50 with slight improvements measured each time. This will probably be it.

 

[FULLTHROTTLERICK]

Yeah, slowly working my way up the ladder and finding what performs the best. 0w40 turned to 5w40 turned to 5w50 with slight improvements measured each time. This will probably be it.

I see you're in the great white north. Do you have any concern(s) running that "thick" of an oil in the winter months? Or do you employ an oil heater type thing to assist? Genuinely curious b/c historically we've run thicker oils than what the manual calls for in most of our offroad vehicles and sometimes cars/trucks too but it's pretty warm here in Fla

 

[OnTheReel]

I see you're in the great white north. Do you have any concern(s) running that "thick" of an oil in the winter months? Or do you employ an oil heater type thing to assist? Genuinely curious b/c historically we've run thicker oils than what the manual calls for in most of our offroad vehicles and sometimes cars/trucks too but it's pretty warm here in Fla

No concerns. I ran the M1 5w50 last winter and it did great. Drove sensibly until everything was up to temp (like I do no matter what).

Another member on this forum in Michigan (I think) is also running this Red Line 5w50 year round and he posted great sample result with it.

With the way you drive yours, and in that climate 5w50 would almost certainly improve the wear rate.

 

[LS2Cobra]

What's the ambient exterior temp? My hot idle pressure is mid-30s with RL 0w40 and 5w50.
HPL Super Car 5w50 seems to be 2-3 PSI higher but oil temps are higher, too.

 

[OnTheReel]

What's the ambient exterior temp? My hot idle pressure is mid-30s with RL 0w40 and 5w50.
HPL Super Car 5w50 seems to be 2-3 PSI higher but oil temps are higher, too.

It was a hundred yesterday. Bulk oil temp just under 200.

With the stock thermostat I’d expect at least 15 degrees higher oil temp in the same conditions. Which would amount to roughly half an SAE grade worth of viscosity reduction. Add in some shear and dilution (which I don’t have yet in this very fresh run), and the difference narrows even more.

 

[Engine45]

Watching this. Wondering what SoFlo heat and humidity would do with 5/50. And thanks to on the reel for all the info gent.

 

[JKMTRX]

Hmm interesting. I was thinking of running 5w40 at first oil change down here but everyone told me to stick with 0w-40. I am tuned running E85 180 deg thermostat.

 

[OnTheReel]

Hmm interesting. I was thinking of running 5w40 at first oil change down here but everyone told me to stick with 0w-40. I am tuned running E85 180 deg thermostat.

With Red Line there’s a decent HTHS bump even just going from the 0w40 to 5w40 (4.1 to 4.4). Both are huge improvements over the PUP which is in the mid 3s.

Frankly we don’t really need an 0w-anything anywhere where in the 48 states. But especially not in FL with a tuned truck. I can understand those here who want to cover their ass and use it for warranty. But my interest is covering the engine (and thus my own ass since I am the warranty).

My wear rate with 5w50 and the DT937 package is quite a bit below the universal average of all Hellcats, many of which are stock (running primarily PUP 0w40 at very short intervals based on Blackstone’s data). It’s actually even better than it was with the truck stock on 5w40, and I drive it harder than ever. Tells me I’m moving in the right direction here.

 

[LS2Cobra]

Does the 180 thermo cause computer problems...?

 

[OnTheReel]

Does the 180 thermo cause computer problems...?

Not if you’re tuned for it. Without tune the coldest you can go is a 192.

 

[JKMTRX]

Does the 180 thermo cause computer problems...?

You can run on stock tune but will throw a code eventually. 192 i would run if you are stock, tuned 180.

 

[JKMTRX]

With Red Line there’s a decent HTHS bump even just going from the 0w40 to 5w40 (4.1 to 4.4). Both are huge improvements over the PUP which is in the mid 3s.

Frankly we don’t really need an 0w-anything anywhere where in the 48 states. But especially not in FL with a tuned truck. I can understand those here who want to cover their ass and use it for warranty. But my interest is covering the engine (and thus my own ass since I am the warranty).

My wear rate with 5w50 and the DT937 package is quite a bit below the universal average of all Hellcats, many of which are stock (running primarily PUP 0w40 at very short intervals based on Blackstone’s data). It’s actually even better than it was with the truck stock on 5w40, and I drive it harder than ever. Tells me I’m moving in the right direction here.

Yeah i wanted to run a full ester based 5W-40. Coldest it has ever gotten down here has been upper 40's and that is just before sun up and maybe one or two days a year. I have been running Redline 0W-40 and Amsoil (one shop i take it to they only fill it with that, even though i bring my own oil). Changed oil at 1k miles then every 3k after that. Just hit 19k and running similar package to their 937 but with ID 1300, 3.05 upper, 10% lower, BAP, S&B, Ripa billet thermostat housing to help flow, 180 def thermostat. Truck makes 17.5PSI and i am at sea level. Been running E85 since tuned at 7k miles. I have the option of running 93 if in a pinch. Dusterhoff said just to not run it hard on 93 with boost levels because of heat.

 

[Twisted Pair]

I've been running this exact oil for 4 years, works great, especially in the heat.

 

[FULLTHROTTLERICK]

Im curious at what point the oil becomes too thick/problematic. Like redline makes a 15w50 too but cant imagine that would flow properly at startup?

And do you think we’d be ok running the 5w50 here in Fla? Our oil temps are usually around 235 when cruising around town and 240-250 when offroad. Im concerned it would get quite a bit hotter and thus negate any extra wear protection we’d be getting. Maybe if we changed the oil every 3k instead of 5-6k that would be the trick. But that Redline stuff is too expensive to be changing that frequently!

 

[OnTheReel]

Im curious at what point the oil becomes too thick/problematic. Like redline makes a 15w50 too but cant imagine that would flow properly at startup?

And do you think we’d be ok running the 5w50 here in Fla? Our oil temps are usually around 235 when cruising around town and 240-250 when offroad. Im concerned it would get quite a bit hotter and thus negate any extra wear protection we’d be getting. Maybe if we changed the oil every 3k instead of 5-6k that would be the trick. But that Redline stuff is too expensive to be changing that frequently!

Takes 30-40 degrees to move an SAE grade in viscosity. Zero chance you’ll see oil temps that much higher with 5w50 and may not be any higher at all. Heat can increase at BOTH ends of the viscosity spectrum. Drag from oil on the high end (harmless), and friction on the low end as components get pushed out of hydrodynamic lubrication (harmful).

The OEMs have sold out to lower viscosities to avoid oil induced drag at all costs, and increase fuel efficiency. In normal conditions this usually works. However whenever we increase heat or increase load beyond “normal”, the safety margin disappears. And then anti-wear additives are tasked to do what viscosity would do naturally if it was high enough. Additives that which, by the way, have been slowly reduced in shelf oils for decades now at the behest of the EPA. Additives that are also consumable, of course. The candle is burning at both ends.

Should everyone switch to 10w60? Of course not. At some point it’s just wasted energy and lost power. But would it blow up? No. Your engine operates in a vast range of oil viscosity every trip you take. The viscosity difference between cold and hot oil is monumental compared to going to 5w50 from 0w40.

 

[FULLTHROTTLERICK]

Takes 30-40 degrees to move an SAE grade in viscosity. Zero chance you’ll see oil temps that much higher with 5w50 and may not be any higher at all. Heat can increase at BOTH ends of the viscosity spectrum. Drag from oil on the high end (harmless), and friction on the low end as components get pushed out of hydrodynamic lubrication (harmful).

The OEMs have sold out to lower viscosities to avoid oil induced drag at all costs, and increase fuel efficiency. In normal conditions this usually works. However whenever we increase heat or increase load beyond “normal”, the safety margin disappears. And then anti-wear additives are tasked to do what viscosity would do naturally if it was high enough. Additives that which, by the way, have been slowly reduced in shelf oils for decades now at the behest of the EPA. Additives that are also consumable, of course. The candle is burning at both ends.

Should everyone switch to 10w60? Of course not. At some point it’s just wasted energy and lost power. But would it blow up? No. Your engine operates in a vast range of oil viscosity every trip you take. The viscosity difference between cold and hot oil is monumental compared to going to 5w50 from 0w40.

Good explanation -thanks man!

 

[KDTO_TRX]

Great topic and information here. I understand the advantages of changing from 0w40 to 5w40, but trying to understand the advantages of going from 40w to 50w. As a group our motors are in great condition. The internal parts are not worn out and the tolerances are still very tight. Wouldn’t a 40w oil flow better under higher temperatures (in a motor with very tight tolerances) than a 50w oil? What do we gain with the 50w that makes it better than the 40w?
Thanks for the input!

 

[OnTheReel]

Great topic and information here. I understand the advantages of changing from 0w40 to 5w40, but trying to understand the advantages of going from 40w to 50w. As a group our motors are in great condition. The internal parts are not worn out and the tolerances are still very tight. Wouldn’t a 40w oil flow better under higher temperatures (in a motor with very tight tolerances) than a 50w oil? What do we gain with the 50w that makes it better than the 40w?
Thanks for the input!

Tolerances, clearances and flow just muddy the waters when it comes to choosing viscosity.

“Tolerance” is the acceptable amount of deviation from spec. Tighter is always better in machining. This has improved over the years (with the exception of the GM 6.2 apparently), but has no impact on viscosity requirements.

“Tolerances” is often the word used when someone actually means “clearances”. But here’s the deal. Can’t spec viscosity on it. Clearances within the engine vary greatly from part to part. Compare the interface between cam and lifter to something like piston ring to cylinder wall and you’ll see how impossible that is. Bearing clearances are typically the only thing consistent. And by that I also mean they have been consistent across all platforms for a hundred years at this point. And thus shouldn’t be used as the impetus for using a thinner oil.

Flow. This is fixed by the nature of our positive displacement oil pump and high relief valve pressure. Meaning, except at the most extremes, what goes into the pump goes through the engine, period. And in fact, higher viscosity oil can actually increase the volume moved since it reduces slip within the oil pump. This statement on flow is true for as long as the oil is pumpable and we are talking ridiculous, almost impossibly cold temperatures with any 5wXX synthetic oil.

Ideally we’d spec viscosity based on surface finish since we are relying on it to fill the peaks and valleys; the highs and lows between the parts we don’t want touching each other. I say ideally because…well…that’s not how it goes. Instead, OEs are choosing a viscosity that minimizes energy (fuel economy) losses while maintaining an adequate film thickness in “normal operation”, at least through their warranty period.

Fullthrottlerick running oil at 250*, not normal. A guy towing through the desert at 270*…nope. Me adding a few pounds of boost? No. Any situation in which the oil temperature is elevated and/or the cylinder pressures are higher than “normal” comes with the risk of thinning out and punching through that oil film and having metal to metal contact. The SAE 50 gives a much larger cushion. And the higher levels of anti-wear additives in this non-API oil give it a stronger backstop in situations where the film can’t be maintained regardless.

Now, the reason I didn’t shoot right to the top of the viscosity pyramid is because when talking film thickness, an inch is as good as a mile. Anything more is waste. Wear can only occur when surfaces touch. The 50 doesn’t improve on a 40 if the 40 is adequate. Which it is for some. It was NOT for me which has been proven out in every oil sample I’ve run in this truck.

But if you don’t test, you don’t know. If you bury your head in the sand and pretend Ram’s engineers are actually in charge and striving to make your engine last forever, well you may be in trouble.